While he is not a photographer, Seth Godin has been a touchstone for many photographers as they make their way into the difficult to navigate shoals of self-employment. His latest book, Linchpin, is an impassioned treatise on why you matter, and how you can make a difference. We interviewed “America’s Greatest Marketer” aka author of the most popular marketing blog on the plant looking for a few nuggets of wisdom from the wise.
Digital Wedding Forum: How do we reconcile art and commerce? For the artist who also needs to be a businessperson, how do we keep one from overwhelming the other?
Seth Godin: I think the souvenirs of your art… the stuff you sell to make money… don’t have to be artistic. Souvenirs are things that people like to buy, and they are often a shadow of your work, not the work itself. Christo did a great job of this division. The art was wrapping a building. The souvenir is the print or the poster.
If you’re an accountant, your art might be the way you interact with people, the way you ask questions, the way you deal with fear. But what you sell is taxes.
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DWF: You talk a lot about work that “matters”. Doing things that “matter.” What matters?
Seth: For me, stuff that matters has nothing much at all to do with the market. What matters is work you’re proud of.
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DWF: It can be hard to be an artist (especially a self employed one, or one in a small company) when the bills need to be paid, and it’d be nice to think that everyone who is audacious is rewarded, but that isn’t always the case. Is there a balance that can be struck between the pursuit of art and the need to pay the rent?
Seth: I think some marketers reward art far more than others. Being an artistic oil wildcatter is a lousy way to make a living. Being an artistic worker on the pacemaker assembly line is silly. And making money as a poet is just too much of a long shot. So if making money is your goal, you need to make smart choices about your market and THEN figure out what your art is. Not the other way around.
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DWF: What happens when we think we’re doing art, but it turns out that we’re doing plumbing? When we’ve carved out our niche and we get complacent, or we push to change the world, and then the world changes, and we find that there is no resistance. That we have become the status quo? Do we keep on, secure in our knowledge that we have changed things, or do we seek change simply for the sake of change?
Seth: You mean what do you do when you succeed in your art and establish a new standard? Set a new standard.
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DWF: There’s a pair of lines in the Incredibles—voiced first by Dash, then repeated by Syndrome—that says if everyone is special, then nobody is. Are you worried that Linchpin is a call for everyone to be special? And is that a good or a bad thing in your view?
Seth: Everyone’s not going to read my book. Everyone doesn’t have the guts to do art. Everyone will give up long before you do. I’m not worried a bit about everyone. Just you.
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DWF: Recently, Edelman released a report on trust, and one of the most shocking findings—to those of us who practice but may not study word of mouth—was that the number of people who say they trust in the word of a friend about a company has dropped from 45% in 2008 to 2010. This seems to be heading the wrong way. Why this erosion, or apparent erosion of trust in our friends?
Seth: The cause is people like Edelman! Companies that work hard to get people to pimp their friends, or trick them into doing so. It’s going to get worse, a lot worse, partly because our definition of friend is a lot broader than it used to be. When you have strangers for friends [on Facebook, Twitter, etc], it’s easy to not trust them, right?
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DWF: How does a linchpin operate in a small business setting, often a company of one, as many self-employed photographers are? What are they “connecting”?
Seth: Photographers? They connect brides to grooms. They connect businesses to the community. They create digital interactions that scale, or they build a community of florists and caterers and others that can serve the community they’d like to serve.
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DWF: Your concept of “emotional labour” really resonates, especially with what we shall call the traditional artists. In this case, the Wedding photographers. I know for me, I fall in love every time I go out to photograph someone, but that can be extremely hard on a person. Are we really meant to “labour” with our emotions? To riot ourselves to these places where we are vulnerable and open and yet not fear getting hurt?
Seth: Well, you don’t have to, but if you don’t, someone with the guts and drive to do so is going to be a better artist and a more attractive choice than you are. In my experience, you can stretch your emotions, but they bounce back.
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DWF: It seems like everyone these days is hanging out their shingle as a wedding photographer, and you call for people to become artists. I know that you are not using the traditional definition of artist, but there’s lots of people out there who see the word and think it will involve paint and canvas or, more to the point, a camera. With hundreds and thousands of new photographers flooding the market, what’s going to happen to the market? It’s not like most of us are old guard; most wedding photographers grew up on Purple Cow and most are pursuing their own niche. What happens when everyone wants to be an artist, and the way they express that is to do the same thing?
Seth: When everyone has a camera, and everyone thinks they are a photographic artist, it’s clear that access to the device is not a scarce resource. If that’s all you’ve got, I’m not going to pay you. The art isn’t in the taking of the picture. The art is in what you do the other 21 hours in a day.
If you don’t like that, you should become an amateur and do what you love, but don’t expect to get paid for it!
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DWF: What is the most important single thing a creative (wedding photog) could do right now to start getting more business?
Seth: Stop looking for more business! The most important thing is to reinvent what it is you sell and to overwhelm your current clients with the experience they encounter when they engage you. This is what word of mouth will come from. Not from better photos, not from a better brochure, not from a cheaper price.
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DWF: If you were opening a photography business tomorrow in an area that was already saturated with competitors of all different talents, pricing and experience, what would you do to stand out?
Seth: I wouldn’t open a photography business.
See above. You’re not entitled to succeed when you are just like everyone else, even if you add a bit.
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DWF: What would you do if, as soon as you did that, your competitors immediately began copying you?
Seth: I expect that. Take a look at business book covers since 2000. A lot of copying. Take a look at business blogs since 2003. A lot of copying. Take a look at powerpoints. A lot of copying,
That’s expected, and I’m flattered by it. Anyone who changes the game feels the same way. It’s part of the deal.
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DWF: Is the top of your head naturally so smooth, or do you have to shave it?
Seth: Used to be artificial (an homage to my dad and then a marketing tool) and now, alas, it’s irreversible.
Seth Godin’s new book, Linchpin, is available at fine bookstores everywhere, including Amazon.com and Audible.com. You can also visit Seth’s website and blog.
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32 Comments at "Our Interview With Marketing Guru and Author Seth Godin"
Great interview Trent!
People listen up. Seth knows. This is the quote to pay attention to: “The art isn’t in the taking of the picture. The art is in what you do the other 21 hours in a day.”
If you can’t separate yourself you don’t deserve to succeed. Be an amateur.
Fundy
PS – huge kudos and thanks to Trent Ernst for getting this interview. I’ve been a big fan of Mr. Godin’s for a long time and name am a fan of Mr. Ernst.
I do think this point is very true also except I sleep for 8 hours out of the 21
O-mazing! Thank you.
Thanks for this! I’ve read Linchpin and underlined a good portion of it. This is a wonderful and succinct summary and application for wedding photographers. I’ve changed my approach completely as a result.
Thanks for the interview. Smart guy this Seth fellow.
Great job Trent.
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Awesome…the man is a genious. Thanks for using my question Trent. Now I know what to do.
I love that he hasn’t sugar-coated anything. I think a lot of the time we press onwards determined to succeed, because we think we deserve to do so. But life isn’t like that. Determination counts a lot, but sometimes all you do is fail with gritted teeth.
Thanks, Seth. And great interview, Trent!
” I wouldn’t open a photography business” …that says it all. The entire country is over saturated with wedding photographers of all
sizes and makes. It’s an easy occupation ( notice I didn’t use the work profession) to get into with little financing and talent. Digital have dropped this occupation from one where skills and talent were needed to one where as long one has plenty of batteries and keeps the camera on the P mode, one can make some pocket change from it. Unlicensed, ungoverned and unregulated.
Excellent — thank you! I’m a big fan, and it is great to hear Seth’s thoughts as they apply to our industry.
Great interview, So much of what Seth had to say I think will resonate in the minds of many of us photographers. I would love to hear more from Seth in the future, but for now it’s off to Amazon I go…
Thanks Trent! I was sad when the interview ended. I wanted to read more!
Great interview, although sometimes wish the answers were longer than the questions…lol.
But, I had to read ““The art isn’t in the taking of the picture. The art is in what you do the other 21 hours in a day” about 3 times. Powerful stuff. Turns a lot of how we have been trained to think as photographers on it’s head.
Geo, if you find that new competition is taking photos that rival yours whilst keeping the dial on ‘P’, maybe you need to up your game. There are many, many miles to run between opening the box to a new dslr and producing flawless images fit for a queen. The fact is that anybody with a good lens/camera combo can produce a decent image, and a decent image was industry standard for a long time. Things are changing and irreversibly so. We, the new professionals are defining, right now, the new standard. Keep up or be left behind
[...] (a blog worth reading no matter what you do for a living). I’ll link it – it’s an interview with Seth on the Digital Wedding Forum Wedding Photographer’s Blog. Here’s the eye-opening [...]
Aaron, I think your comment suggest that you have perhaps missed the point of this exercise. It is a fact that many “amateurs” are producing work to rival that of some “masters” – ON AN EMOTIONAL LEVEL. Let’s be honest, 99.99% of our clients don’t care what technique or knowledge is employed to produce their images. They just want images they connect with. If you believe technical superiority is going to deliver your bottom line from the hordes of newbies, well, get back to me in five years and let me know how that works out for you. IMO the “new standard” you refer to will be defined in areas entirely outside of the realm of the DSLR and Photoshop. What areas? Branding, marketing, creating AN EXPERIENCE, creating fantasies.
Thank you Dave, you help make my point for me. Look, my comment was meant to express irritation over hearing nothing but doom and gloom from old photogs. They are afraid because all of the tools of their trade are widely and cheaply available to all now. If that’s the basis of their fear, that means they have always felt, at lest to a degree, that the their tools were the thin red line keeping them in business, not their vision. We now inhabit a market were basically everything, lighting, gear, post software, is commodified more or less. That means we have to work hard to keep out vision fresh, our art ever progressive. That’s the challenge and it bugs me when I hear the old guard complain because they don’t want to muster the impetus to meet it, that’s all I’m saying
Very insightful, although I wish the interview was longer!
I do agree with Aaron on “doom and gloom” as I get so tired of hearing about hoards of amatures entering the market and such. As Godin says, focus on the other 21-hours of your day and what you can do to better your biz. Improve your word of mouth and to quote him “The most important thing is to reinvent what it is you sell and to overwhelm your current clients with the experience they encounter when they engage you. This is what word of mouth will come from. Not from better photos, not from a better brochure, not from a cheaper price.”
To me, this is the point of the exercise. To show that we as photographers should stick to fundamentals of business. Separating ourselves from the amatures. You do that not through facades, but through good vendor relations, good word of mouth, great customer service, fanstic albums, and so on. These are the things that $500/$1000 CL shooters and such cannot provide.
You have two roads you can follow as a photographer. You can shoot for next to nothing and burn out and exit in no time, or you can do as Godin says and actually compete. IMO, this is a fantastic time to be a photographer.
[...] I did an interview with Seth Godin about the art of wedding photography about a week ago and it is the feature story over on the blog. [...]
As usual God was preaching the word! Great blog with interesting insight and perspective. I enjoyed the rad and will think about it deeply.
Hehe…I meant to write Godin not God! (hush Freud…)
Great job, Seth and Trent! Thanks for sharing.
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Brent- great comment.. Trent- great interview..
Awesome interview, interesting to see Seth’s perspective.
Lots to think about as I am in the thick of a branding overhaul.
Most fascinating article I’ve read for a while on the net. While other readers point out their favourite quote mine is;
DWF: What is the most important single thing a creative (wedding photog) could do right now to start getting more business?
Seth: Stop looking for more business! The most important thing is to reinvent what it is you sell and to overwhelm your current clients with the experience they encounter when they engage you. This is what word of mouth will come from. Not from better photos, not from a better brochure, not from a cheaper price.
That’s basically what I did recognising that the usual channels of promotion weren’t working. Try a unique and untried channel and come in from a different direction. Class advice.
“If your area is already saturated…I wouldn’t open a photography business.” We must be different. So refreshing. Thanks Seth!
Nice, I love Seth Godin. Keep up the good work!
[...] to the DWF for publishing this interview with Seth Godin. Seth was one of my picks for the top 10 photography blogs to read (most of them [...]
Well said on all booths- I agree.. Seth is brilliant.
[...] (The Digital Wedding Forum) did an interview with Seth Godin back in March of 2010. The question asked was “what is the single most important thing a [...]
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