As much as you all like to complain about “Uncle Bob’s”, I’ve had my shots PURPOSELY ruined by photographers claiming to be professional in just the way you mention.

Like… we’re standing around for the cake cutting, and he would take a shot, then step INTO everybody else’s line of view while he reviewed his LCD, then step back to take another shot.

While I’m mentioning this, I should probably point out that the derogatory term of “Uncle Bob” is getting more than a little annoying. If the “professional” photographers would get their prices and production timelines in line, then these people would be greatly reduced. BUT, as long as you’re expecting to be paid for both your time (i.e. the cost of the photoshoot) in addition to the production of the prints, you’re doing your customers a disservice — and requiring more of the wedding attendees to take photos.

If you would provide a reasonable number of the good, edited shots in digital format with full rights to print as part of the photoshoot price, these people would just get your photos and they wouldn’t get in your way.

Of course, you also have to do it in a timely fashion. The photog I mentioned earlier had told the bride & groom that it would be 4-6 MONTHS before their photos would be available… so the attendees were filling the gap for those that couldn’t make it, as well.

Greatest comment ever ^

KB…
That sound likes a great idea. Do you work for free as well? Do you go to the movies, pay once, and expect to be able to go back to the movie any time you want for free? Should we be compensated for the art work that we give on ‘digital negatives’ or you should get that for free as well to do with whatever you want? So if we compensated by charging 10,000 up front to cover that lost income, would that be reasonable? Do you get the rights to the music that was played by the dj to reproduce whenever you want… because you hired the dj to be there for his time?
See how silly it sounds? We understand the need/want of people to get something for nothing. But just as you make a living on what you do, so do the people taking the photograph. If the couple didn’t love what they do as photographers, they wouldn’t have hired them. They know what the cost is ahead of time, they know the photographers style and what will and won’t be included.

@paul: you think it sounds silly — and what you liken it to, does, but that’s because of the scale.

If a photog is paid $15 to do the 5 hour shoot + 10 hours editing (no, those numbers aren’t a misprint — I do mean $1/hr), then yes, they deserve to get paid for every print. That’s about the right ratio when you compare the cost of the movie production to the cost of a ticket.

But, if the photog is paid, say $1500 for those 15 hours… they have no business retaining copyright, in my mind.

I look at it this way — my primary business is web development. I can charge the client $xx per hour for my time, or I can charge a licensing fee… I can’t do both without ripping off the client and losing my business.

I’m saying here: charge appropriately for your time, or charge for your product. But pick a horse and run with it. Don’t try to get them coming and going — that is the “old school” way of thinking and will only result in the client finding a $500 wedding photographer that DOES provide the digital files.

I honestly don’t know you Paul, so I’m saying this as a general statement… if you think your 5 hours on the wedding day, plus, say, 20 hours of post-editing is worth $10,000… you’ve got some ego issues to iron out.

I’d say that a decent photog MIGHT be worth $100/hr (to the end-client, not as an employment rate). An exceptional photog, well, let’s just say that people that hire him don’t have to ask about the price… but there are very few of those.

Sir, apparently you have no idea what goes into photographing a wedding. Because if you think the only time you spend working is the wedding day you are wrong, I typically invest about 40 hours into each wedding I shoot. With editing meetings, and album design.

Then we have to pay insurance, buy our gear, advertise, and a whole gaggle of other things that is to long to list. I mean I average about 6k a wedding and I am by far from getting rich. So until you understand what “most” wedding photographers invest in their business, as in time and money I wouldn’t be so quick to judge.

@Travis: look at what I said above: x hours for the shoot and y hours for the editing.

I realize that we’re talking about more than just the shoot and accommodated for that.

I also understand the other business expenses… I apparently wasn’t clear enough in articulating that I, too, am self-employed.

Your price, will obviously depend on your market — expenses where I live are lower than other places, so I can charge less for my services (and, the local market would not bear the higher rates of larger centres, either).

And, at $150/hr ($6000 for 40 hours), you’re making some pretty good coin by any standard. It sounds, though, like you need to get more business — if you had one wedding each weekend (on average), you’d be grossing $312k per year. Assuming that your expenses account for even half of your revenue, you’d still be pulling a solid six-figure salary.

The bottom line: charge what your market will let you… but don’t complain if you’re priced too high and someone better comes along and undercuts you. And especially don’t pull an @ScottBourne with it.

KB:

if you are charging 150$ per hour and it’s costing you 135$ per hour…how much profit is left?

I include the images with a wedding since the digital age is upon us but I require a bigger payment for it.

If I could get a 2000$ wedding every week-end I would be very happy. But reality is different. You get 1-2 a month because some people do not understand the cost, value, service and some “Unclebob” likes the extra 500$ for the day to pay for their luxury!

Have a tremendous day,

Sébastien D’Amour

Wow, you shouldn’t have copyright to your images because you charge for it? Hmm…. I charge for the right for you to use my images, as I will have the copyright to the images until I die. That’s the law where I live at least. But I can sell the rights to reprint and use my images, even if it’s images taken of someone else instead of just a flower.

Ah cool, @kb, you’re a web designer? Sweet! I need a new guy. I’ve got a budget of $300 and I need a full custom flash website with about 6 different galleries, and a contact page. I need it online by next week. You sound like you’re my guy! To think I was going to pay someone $4000 for this . . . boy, would that be stupid!

KB, do the math backwards. If I need to clear 50,000/yr as a full time photographer to feed and shelter my family, figure the rate I need to charge for doing an average of 25-30 weddings a year (that, by the way, is a crapload of work in production alone – not counting time spent on business. I too spend about 40hrs on a client). Cost of doing business per wedding including gear allowance, products, insurance, shipping materials, business expenses, etc… is about $1500(Low ball). 50K divided by 25 weddings is 2000 per wedding.

2000+1500(CODB)+400(FedTax) is $3900 per wedding. (excluding state sales tax)

This rate doesn’t really take into consideration growing a business. It just covers the basic needs. I don’t believe that photographers with talent, skills, and the great responsibility to our clients should be payed a mediocre wage for our services.

Cheers.

please please please don’t chase KB off. I would like him to be a recurring character on here, possibly score an interview…

KB: I think it’s pretty safe to assume that, while you may consider yourself “self-employed” you are clearly not a successful business person and you are most likely running your “business” in a way that contravenes legal regulations, such as paying income taxes. Jsut a hunch.

But what does any of this have to do with photobombing?

Let’s be careful about making assumptions. Varied and opposing comments that are within the debate boundaries make reading blogs worth something. Otherwise, we would just go around patting each other on the back and ignoring the viewpoints of others.

Hey tara, when you get that website could you send the template to me so I can use it to? Plus I have like 10 friends who would like to use it as well. Why pay for it when they can get it for free?

KB, please understand most of us charge what we do so that we can sustain an average life by doing what we love. Most of us do not try to brake the bank off unsuspecting brides and grooms. We provide a service they want. I am not saying all wedding photographers are “angels” or “perfect” but the majority of us are just happy to provide great images, make people happy and pay our bills.

And just for the record I always try to help uncle bob if he has a question.

@Sebastien: I see your point — I’d wager that at that point, you may want to examine your costs. I don’t know how much of that is a fixed cost and how much is variable…

@Petra: you can “sell” your copyright to the images, or you can license them. Both those are options in most of the civilised world. I don’t think it’s all that fair to charge for the creation of the image (i.e. the photoshoot time) but not give the person paying your attendance there at VERY least the right to reproduce these images.

@Tara: it’s within my right to tell you this — find someone else. I’m not going to meet your budget expectations. I’m also not going to tell you that the cheap solution is ruining the industry. In fact, they tend to generate MORE business for me.

@Nate: that’s a pretty high cost of doing business, but I don’t know your region. I can tell you that if a wedding photo shoot where I’m from has variable costs exceeding $100, that would be pretty amazing. (Please note: I’m not including actual printing of images here — as you can tell, I’m advocating providing the images to the client for them to print).

@Sherri: wow… character accusations and everything. Incredible. Hit a nerve, did I? As for what it has to do with photobombing… see the third post as to what spurred this line of conversation.

@Travis: I totally understand what you’re saying, and part of this is coming from an ongoing “cringe” reaction when I hear what some people are charging for less-than-mediocre work. It also wasn’t helped by the recent issue surrounding ScottBourne…

And you hit the nail on the head. If Tara pays me the hourly rate to develop the site (which would likely be around the $3k-4k range, perhaps higher… we haven’t exactly done a full needs assessment ), she’s more than welcome to share it around — it’s her product. But if I have developed a template and LICENSE it to her for $300… then that’s a different ball of wax.

If you truly are a good photog, charge what you can… unfortunately, there are too many less-than-mediocre individuals getting paid WAY too much for their work based on a portfolio of one-good-shot-in-ten-thousand. Unfortunately, the bride & groom don’t realize this until after the wedding and find that he only took 5000 shots at their wedding, so there isn’t even one good one. Luck-of-the-draw, I guess!

By the way, Travis: I like your attitude… and you’re probably someone that deserves the rate you charge.

Well KB, I am certainly one that is open to different points of view and I definitely appreciate yours. I really do.

I will aslo be the first to admit that I am far from the best photographer out there. But what i lack in photographic skills I make up for in customer service.

And, I do see your point as well. (the part about some photographers charging way more than they should) I am sure we all can agree with that.

Travis

This is so entertaining to read. Really unbelievable how people who are NOT professionals feel we only put in 20-40 hours for a wedding and if we charge $6k then that whole amount is our PROFIT… HELLO us PROFESSIONALS have EXPENSES!
And don’t even get me started on the COPYRIGHT issue… wow. Unbelievable how people feel our work is worth nothing.
However— I felt this way before I became a professional and soon learned don’t give away your work.

Very amusing discussion. It always amazes me how folks offer opinions when they have no clue. Bottom line is you get what you pay for.

KB, maybe I’m thick, but you say I shouldn’t charge for the photo shoot time? So I should work for free for 8-12 hrs and then only charge for the product I sell. Or what are you really saying?

Because I’ve spend many hours training myself to learn this trade. I’ve spend money on gear. And you say that my knowledge is not worth paying for. I’m just there pulling the trigger and have no artistic eye and point of view that a regular Joe might not have?

I might not create art, but wouldn’t my work be worth more than $15 an hour? A web designer charge more than that, don’t they? I mean you work on a website maybe a day or four, so that’s $150 or $500. So why should you charge more than me?

@hillary: I don’t know how much time YOU spend on it. I was using another commenter’s time estimate of 40 hours. You may use more. That could be because you do a better job, or you could just not know what you’re doing, I don’t know. I’m VERY well acquainted with expenses… you’re not spouting anything new.

@Petra: I’m saying that you should either be charging for your time **OR** the finished product, **not both**. I have NO problem with photogs that charge say, $6k, $10k, or even $50k for the shoot.

BUT, I do have a problem if they charge that much AND then also want outrageous amounts for every print made (i.e. when a 4×6 costs $0.50 to have made, and the photog wants to charge $5 for each of those that is printed).

You could do a balance — like charge for your time but include that value in prints, so you know you’re not going to get stiffed at the end (i.e. charge $1000 for the day of shooting, but include $1000 worth of end-product at your “retail” prices (i.e. not discounted)).

I’m keenly aware of the hours you’ve spent training yourself. And the gear you’ve invested in.

I’m also saying here is that your industry is no different from mine. In fact, for the most part, people in the IT sector have put a great deal more time into training (often university-level degrees) and money into equipment than your average photog. Our ongoing expenses are at least as high as yours.

How do I know this? Well, I do a bit of photography, too.

What I’m really trying to say here is that photogs have gotten a REALLY bad rap for getting people coming & going. I’m sorry that you’re not seeing that.

Interesting point of view there kb, my other business is a software development company, you say that if someone pays you an hourly rate for development then you don’t mind them sharing the site around…really?? Our clients pay us an hourly or daily rate but they sure as heck don’t get the intellectual property rights on the software. Is this a difference between the UK and the US?

In regards to the ‘variable costs’ of a wedding being $100, firstly you obviously don’t have a clue in regards to how much some of the products cost at trade (if you can find me a high quality album for $100, please, please give me a link). Secondly, it isn’t just about the variable costs per wedding, it is the fixed costs of running a business. Don’t be fooled into thinking that running costs in the IT sector are significantly higher, as a photographer I still have computer hardware costs, hosting costs, software costs, I then have to add in to that the cost of replacing camera equipment (which for pro grade stuff is incredibly expensive), as well has having full backups of all my kit. On top of that there is the cost of insurance, rent if you have a studio of some variety, standard bills, marketing, training and workshops (yes, we do that too), travel, sample products, legal fees, accountancy fees, the list goes on. These costs need to be covered by the weddings I shoot, before I add in the variable costs, then there is taxes, pension contributions and so on.

You might well do ‘a bit of photography’, but you clearly haven’t really looked into the costs and other items associated with being a professional photographer. Either that or you just don’t believe it is a profession where people should be able to earn enough to have a comfortable standard of living.

KB: “BUT, I do have a problem if they charge that much AND then also want outrageous amounts for every print made (i.e. when a 4×6 costs $0.50 to have made, and the photog wants to charge $5 for each of those that is printed).”

Response: Almost all photographers offer packages with DVD of the images. You can buy it. Don’t want to pay $3 month for your DVR at home, go buy it for $500 from Tivo. Don’t want to pay $9 for an onion at Outback? Go to a grocery, buy an onion, buy a deep fryer, buy a cutter, make your own spice, hire someone to come to your house and serve it to, and buy a neon sign to put on your front door. Seriously, what are you talking about? Are you from an island or something?

@KB: I’m also saying here is that your industry is no different from mine.

Response: Yes, actually it is. We are dealing with, and selling to, people, not to companies. We can only do one job per week, you can do 1, 10, 100 jobs per week. Our event happens only once with a client. You can have one client hire you for 10 more jobs at the same rate. The best we can do is hope they have a baby and call us again. You can redo the same job for the same client because technology changes and websites change every few years. Come midnight Sat. night, we’re done.

@KB What I’m really trying to say here is that photogs have gotten a REALLY bad rap for getting people coming & going

Response: We’re getting a bad rap? How about this. I’m getting married in 2 months. Cost quoted for appetizers? Between $1500 and $2500 depending on what we want. That’s $1,500 to give flatbread and cheese to 150 people for an hour. Cost for ceremony facility for 30 minute ceremony $2,500. Cost to feed a simple, no design cake to 150 people – $1,075. And guess what, all of this, all of it – is so everyone ELSE can enjoy my wedding. The only thing a couple actually gets themselves, from all the wedding cost, is the photography.

@KB How do I know this? Well, I do a bit of photography, too.

Response: Exactly why you only do a little bit of photography.

KB, I don’t know if you know much about the graphic design business, but as you *might* know, there’s a creative fee, not just an hourly rate when you actually sit by your drawing pad or your computer. You work when you don’t work, and that’s also something you do in photography too. So to me it’s natural to charge a creative fee as well as a fee for my hourly time spent at the wedding, before and after the wedding, as well as for the products that I make. I don’t design an album for free, that’s a lot of hours (and creative time) spent, beside the actual cost. Then there’s the cost of the phone, stamps, packaging, the car, the office, the computers, the taxes (wow, taxes, they are killing us!) The net income that I get from my photography is actually less than if I had been doing graphic design.

KB, I think you’re missing the point. It shouldn’t matter to you if the bride and groom paid $500 for a shoot and burn photographer or $15,000 for a celebrity photographer. The point is that they chose that particular photographer. A good photographer is not going to waste their time trying to block guest photos of something like the cake cutting, but at the same time you should realize that it is more important for the professional photographer to be in the best position to get that shot then you. If you feel strongly that you can do a better job for your friends and families’ weddings both artistically and in terms of cost and production times then by all means offer your services. If they don’t take you up on it though, respect their choice. It’s their wedding.

kb, you get what you pay for, your a n00b.

somebody should just ban this guy

Actually KB’s input is invaluable here. I cannot agree less with the attitude and statement made above by “Brian”. BTW “Brian”, if you are going to spout off like that, at least have the fortitude to enter in your website information.

Anyway – KB is giving us his perception. It’s up to us to agree if it is right or wrong. It would be foolhardy to dismiss it outright as, if he feels this way, there are surely others who do as well.

I agree KB doesn’t understand all of the costs associated with being a wedding photographer. Gear, Insurance, Office, Marketing, Training, Travel, Computers, Software, etc. I don’t see this as being any different then talking with a new photographer in the business who is charging $300 for a wedding. We know that is not sustainable and it, more often then not, will negatively impact their clients if/when their gear fails, they don’t show up for a wedding, etc.

I would also like to point out that basing print costs on the actual materials is not a viable method. I finish off every one of my prints (10 minutes at least per photograph), hand print my own using pigment based inks and specialty papers so my cost is higher then a commercial lab (and much higher then your wal-mart). My clients pay for my expertise and access to higher end printing methods then they do as a consumer. My clients do get a DVD with images that are corrected for color, density and some artistic additions. I firmly believe, however, prints will be timeless.